Not just writing, but language itself begins in labels. I love Socrates, and his/Plato's dialogues are indeed like rabbit holes.
But when it comes to what language/naming/labeling does to consciousness and how to transcend their ability to "trap" you, it's hard to beat the early Daoists Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu (Laozi and Zhuangzi in the more current pinyin).
The entire first chapter of the Daodejing is exactly about this issue, and its opening lines introduce it. The opening lines are "The Way that can be Wayed (Dao also meant to speak, even though most translations focus solely on the "Way" definition and translate the second Dao as "spoken of") is not the actual Way; The Named that can be Named is not the actual Name."
Also along the same lines is "the map is not the territory" concept elaborated by Alfred Korzybski a hundred years ago.
Ben, thanks for sharing your beautiful insight into what really is a larger topic.
I clearly need to soak in the Daodejing. “The Name that can be Named is not the actual Name” provides a trove of ponder with just one title; I am bound to get gloriously lost.
I’m wondering if you might recommend a particular edition of the Daodejing for an untraveled Westerner like me?
There's a ton of options. I would probably suggest getting David Hinton's "The Four Chinese Classics", mostly because then you also get Confucius' Analects and the "Inner Chapters" of Chuang Tzu.
While I love Lao Tzu and the Tao te Ching/Daodejing -- each of the 81 poems are like little jewels to be contemplated over and over -- Chuang Tzu is more fun and explores many of the same ideas with short stories, vignettes, ramblings, etc. Chuang Tzu is way less well knowns in the West than Lao Tzu, though you may know his most famous story/parable of him asking himself whether he was Chuang Tzu dreaming he was a butterfly ot a butterfly dreaming he was Chuang Tzu.
Hinton is a solid translator of Chinese texts and poetry.
Other options would be John Minford's "Tao te Ching" which incuds a lot of excerpts from later Chinese commentary, or the new one that just came out this year by Brook Ziporyn ("Daodejing"). Red Pine has one, the Penguin edition is probably good. Arthur Waley's "The Way and It's Power" is a good option with a lot of commentary. Hall and Ames have a more "technical" version. CC Tsai has a great comic book version if that is up your alley.
Lol, that's a lot of options I know... I think it is the most translated book in the world, even beating the Bible. I've read a dozen translations probably, maybe more, over several decades. It's tough to translate. This year when I read Ziporyn's new translation I read another one side by side, poem by poem. Doing that -- getting two and reading them both -- might be the best option, so you can start to see the myriad ways it can be interpreted.
I would recommend NOT reading Ursula Le Guin's or Stephen Mitchell's. Not for the initial read, anyway. Read 2-3 others first. While theirs are some of the most popular, and interesting in a way (especially if you like Le Guin's fiction) neither could read Classical Chinese and so their versions are built on reading dozens of English translations are are more "interpretations". Mitchell in particular takes (in my opinion) too much license -- there's too much of "him" in his version.
Regardless of which you pick, I think you'll enjoy it.
This is an incredible response, and I truly appreciate the time you took. It's clear you understood that accuracy, or the closest possible translation, is what I value most in ancient texts. Hinton and Chuang Tzu are definitely "my people."
Ben, your breadth and depth of knowledge continue to amaze me. I'm always grateful and humbled to receive your insights.
Thanks! I have been into Daoism for decades, but the reason I was able to write so thorough a response is that I have been seriously considering doing a two year long substack project which explores each of the 81 poems/chapters week by week (as well as a couple dozen context essays).
It would not be a translation per se but a reading of the original Classical Chinese and then an exploration of the “literal” (word by word) meaning along with all the different ways that could be interpreted and translated. Still not 100% sure I will do it — I need to finish Implicate Orders first — but I am trying to wrap my head around Classical Chinese the past couple months as well as reading up on other forms of ancient Chinese philosophy.
If you made that a separate publication, I would definitely subscribe. I'm currently translating the Medicine Buddha Sutra and the Lotus Sutra from Mandarin. I know that in itself is also a translation from Sanskrit, but I believe Chinese languages communicate so effectively to the reader. I consider myself a Buddhist, but Daoism has always been a prevalent part of my spiritual journey, the impetus even. I've read the English translation of Daodejing, but now you make me want to translate it myself.
Interesting; yes the Chinese version of the Lotus Sutra would definitely have a different feel/take. The Chinese take on Buddhist ideas is what led to things like Huayan Buddhism. And of course Zen is just Japanese for Chan, which is what happens when Buddhism meets Daoism. In fact, though Zen is considered a school of Buddhism, I am convinced that there’s more ChuangTzu than Shakyamuni in its basic approach and attitude.
I also have a project on this, but mostly consists of a collection development policy to grab any versions I see “for later“. I would suggest “group project” but then I might run away after knocking on the door.
If I do the project, it will be intended as a “group read of the original text”. I won’t translate the text per se; I’ll do all the work to show the original, discuss the characters’ meanings and grammatical structure of the sentences, etc. And then offer ways to think about the meaning, informed by the ancient philosophical debates of the 6th-3rd Cs BCE when the text was put together as well as later Chinese interpretations by the likes of Wang Bi and a couple others.
So it’d take two years to go through all 81 chapters. Not sure how many people would follow through it all, but it’d be the kind of project that would be made better just by having a lot of readers in the group chats and comments, even if they aren’t writing posts.
Sounds like attending a school of thought. Sounds wonderful. I agree it would be most inspiring with many minds participating. I would happily help drum up support.
John, thanks for chiming in! Whiskey got me through finals ... absolute falsehood. I didn't drink back then, much less whiskey. Nowadays, I sip now and then. :-) I'll check out Blackney. Thanks!
That translation is available for free online as well. Just search “Blakney Tao te Ching.” I haven’t read the whole thing,but I have to say — please don’t take offense — based on the first two lines, I absolutely hate it.
the first two lines in modern Chinese are:
“Dào kě dào, fēi cháng dào.
Míng kě míng, fēi cháng míng.”
It’s a beautiful rhythm. The most concise way to say that is in English is like “Way can Say/Way; not real Way”
“Name can Name; not real Name.”
To translate that as:
‘There are ways but the Way is uncharted;
There are names but not nature in words:”
is a travesty no?
Even “the Way that can be spoken of is not the eternal Way” (a common 20th C translation) loses a lot, but least it keeps the basic rhythm.
This is philosophical poetry.
Blakney seems to be destroying the meaning on every possible level, no?
Well, I’ve got to go with your assessment of Blakney (I do have Hinton’s Four Chinese Classics, as well) and defer to your much more thorough knowledge of Daoism than my own. But. . . I still aver that Blakney’s translation was the one that helped lessen the stress of finals. I guess it helped me put things into perspective. Thanks for writing so knowledgeable on this subject!
It’s like he decided what he thought the text meant philosophically and then wrote that, rather than translating what’s actually there and letting readers wrestle with it.
This is exactly why I warned against Mitchell and Le Guin for first reads.
I imagine this is a general problem with translating texts in general, particularly ancient texts. I had found the Blakney online. Difficult for to me to judge because I lack any familiarity, but that's why I asked. ;-} I have ordered the Hinton text and look forward to its arrival.
"Labels are useful; they let us reach each other."
First, I loved everything about this essay. It's an essay that really propels the reader to think about each statement; to like it, or reject it; to question it, or rejoice in it (because it validates a reader's belief).
Why pull out one quote? And make it the one that states labels are useful?
Labels ARE useful and yes, they might let us reach others. Or they may create barriers, or they may repel us from who we perceive as "other".
Nancy, thanks for the thoughtful comment. I've talked about the damage labels can do, while also acknowledging their usefulness in bringing people together. I'm definitely biased, having seen firsthand how harmful they can be. But I think examining my own bias helped me realize that writing and explaining things can actually free us from the potential harm of labeling. It really boils down to communication and context, doesn't it? You have such a passionate spirit. Thanks again.
Good thoughts.
Not just writing, but language itself begins in labels. I love Socrates, and his/Plato's dialogues are indeed like rabbit holes.
But when it comes to what language/naming/labeling does to consciousness and how to transcend their ability to "trap" you, it's hard to beat the early Daoists Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu (Laozi and Zhuangzi in the more current pinyin).
The entire first chapter of the Daodejing is exactly about this issue, and its opening lines introduce it. The opening lines are "The Way that can be Wayed (Dao also meant to speak, even though most translations focus solely on the "Way" definition and translate the second Dao as "spoken of") is not the actual Way; The Named that can be Named is not the actual Name."
Also along the same lines is "the map is not the territory" concept elaborated by Alfred Korzybski a hundred years ago.
Ben, thanks for sharing your beautiful insight into what really is a larger topic.
I clearly need to soak in the Daodejing. “The Name that can be Named is not the actual Name” provides a trove of ponder with just one title; I am bound to get gloriously lost.
I’m wondering if you might recommend a particular edition of the Daodejing for an untraveled Westerner like me?
There's a ton of options. I would probably suggest getting David Hinton's "The Four Chinese Classics", mostly because then you also get Confucius' Analects and the "Inner Chapters" of Chuang Tzu.
While I love Lao Tzu and the Tao te Ching/Daodejing -- each of the 81 poems are like little jewels to be contemplated over and over -- Chuang Tzu is more fun and explores many of the same ideas with short stories, vignettes, ramblings, etc. Chuang Tzu is way less well knowns in the West than Lao Tzu, though you may know his most famous story/parable of him asking himself whether he was Chuang Tzu dreaming he was a butterfly ot a butterfly dreaming he was Chuang Tzu.
Hinton is a solid translator of Chinese texts and poetry.
Other options would be John Minford's "Tao te Ching" which incuds a lot of excerpts from later Chinese commentary, or the new one that just came out this year by Brook Ziporyn ("Daodejing"). Red Pine has one, the Penguin edition is probably good. Arthur Waley's "The Way and It's Power" is a good option with a lot of commentary. Hall and Ames have a more "technical" version. CC Tsai has a great comic book version if that is up your alley.
Lol, that's a lot of options I know... I think it is the most translated book in the world, even beating the Bible. I've read a dozen translations probably, maybe more, over several decades. It's tough to translate. This year when I read Ziporyn's new translation I read another one side by side, poem by poem. Doing that -- getting two and reading them both -- might be the best option, so you can start to see the myriad ways it can be interpreted.
I would recommend NOT reading Ursula Le Guin's or Stephen Mitchell's. Not for the initial read, anyway. Read 2-3 others first. While theirs are some of the most popular, and interesting in a way (especially if you like Le Guin's fiction) neither could read Classical Chinese and so their versions are built on reading dozens of English translations are are more "interpretations". Mitchell in particular takes (in my opinion) too much license -- there's too much of "him" in his version.
Regardless of which you pick, I think you'll enjoy it.
This is an incredible response, and I truly appreciate the time you took. It's clear you understood that accuracy, or the closest possible translation, is what I value most in ancient texts. Hinton and Chuang Tzu are definitely "my people."
Ben, your breadth and depth of knowledge continue to amaze me. I'm always grateful and humbled to receive your insights.
Jennifer
Thanks! I have been into Daoism for decades, but the reason I was able to write so thorough a response is that I have been seriously considering doing a two year long substack project which explores each of the 81 poems/chapters week by week (as well as a couple dozen context essays).
It would not be a translation per se but a reading of the original Classical Chinese and then an exploration of the “literal” (word by word) meaning along with all the different ways that could be interpreted and translated. Still not 100% sure I will do it — I need to finish Implicate Orders first — but I am trying to wrap my head around Classical Chinese the past couple months as well as reading up on other forms of ancient Chinese philosophy.
Selfish I am to hope you do indeed bring us the Dao … but only after you finish Implicate Orders.
If you made that a separate publication, I would definitely subscribe. I'm currently translating the Medicine Buddha Sutra and the Lotus Sutra from Mandarin. I know that in itself is also a translation from Sanskrit, but I believe Chinese languages communicate so effectively to the reader. I consider myself a Buddhist, but Daoism has always been a prevalent part of my spiritual journey, the impetus even. I've read the English translation of Daodejing, but now you make me want to translate it myself.
Interesting; yes the Chinese version of the Lotus Sutra would definitely have a different feel/take. The Chinese take on Buddhist ideas is what led to things like Huayan Buddhism. And of course Zen is just Japanese for Chan, which is what happens when Buddhism meets Daoism. In fact, though Zen is considered a school of Buddhism, I am convinced that there’s more ChuangTzu than Shakyamuni in its basic approach and attitude.
You continue to amaze me!
I also have a project on this, but mostly consists of a collection development policy to grab any versions I see “for later“. I would suggest “group project” but then I might run away after knocking on the door.
That sounds like a big undertaking, no doubt. But it seems like there's a lot of interest, which is great. Thanks for sharing, and good luck with it!
I quite like the Jane English translation, if only because it was the first I saw
If I do the project, it will be intended as a “group read of the original text”. I won’t translate the text per se; I’ll do all the work to show the original, discuss the characters’ meanings and grammatical structure of the sentences, etc. And then offer ways to think about the meaning, informed by the ancient philosophical debates of the 6th-3rd Cs BCE when the text was put together as well as later Chinese interpretations by the likes of Wang Bi and a couple others.
So it’d take two years to go through all 81 chapters. Not sure how many people would follow through it all, but it’d be the kind of project that would be made better just by having a lot of readers in the group chats and comments, even if they aren’t writing posts.
Sounds like attending a school of thought. Sounds wonderful. I agree it would be most inspiring with many minds participating. I would happily help drum up support.
Well, the one that helped me get through the stress of college finals was an older one, by Blackney (IIRC). And, Chuang-tse, of course!
John, thanks for chiming in! Whiskey got me through finals ... absolute falsehood. I didn't drink back then, much less whiskey. Nowadays, I sip now and then. :-) I'll check out Blackney. Thanks!
That translation is available for free online as well. Just search “Blakney Tao te Ching.” I haven’t read the whole thing,but I have to say — please don’t take offense — based on the first two lines, I absolutely hate it.
the first two lines in modern Chinese are:
“Dào kě dào, fēi cháng dào.
Míng kě míng, fēi cháng míng.”
It’s a beautiful rhythm. The most concise way to say that is in English is like “Way can Say/Way; not real Way”
“Name can Name; not real Name.”
To translate that as:
‘There are ways but the Way is uncharted;
There are names but not nature in words:”
is a travesty no?
Even “the Way that can be spoken of is not the eternal Way” (a common 20th C translation) loses a lot, but least it keeps the basic rhythm.
This is philosophical poetry.
Blakney seems to be destroying the meaning on every possible level, no?
Well, I’ve got to go with your assessment of Blakney (I do have Hinton’s Four Chinese Classics, as well) and defer to your much more thorough knowledge of Daoism than my own. But. . . I still aver that Blakney’s translation was the one that helped lessen the stress of finals. I guess it helped me put things into perspective. Thanks for writing so knowledgeable on this subject!
It’s like he decided what he thought the text meant philosophically and then wrote that, rather than translating what’s actually there and letting readers wrestle with it.
This is exactly why I warned against Mitchell and Le Guin for first reads.
I imagine this is a general problem with translating texts in general, particularly ancient texts. I had found the Blakney online. Difficult for to me to judge because I lack any familiarity, but that's why I asked. ;-} I have ordered the Hinton text and look forward to its arrival.
"Labels are useful; they let us reach each other."
First, I loved everything about this essay. It's an essay that really propels the reader to think about each statement; to like it, or reject it; to question it, or rejoice in it (because it validates a reader's belief).
Why pull out one quote? And make it the one that states labels are useful?
Labels ARE useful and yes, they might let us reach others. Or they may create barriers, or they may repel us from who we perceive as "other".
Nancy, thanks for the thoughtful comment. I've talked about the damage labels can do, while also acknowledging their usefulness in bringing people together. I'm definitely biased, having seen firsthand how harmful they can be. But I think examining my own bias helped me realize that writing and explaining things can actually free us from the potential harm of labeling. It really boils down to communication and context, doesn't it? You have such a passionate spirit. Thanks again.
I really enjoyed this!
Happy, thank you so much. That means a great deal to me. Garsh, I've been sitting on this piece for a while. Whodda thunk?